Comments on: Culture Wars… now and forever! http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/ Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas Fri, 14 Aug 2009 04:37:36 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: CK http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-8049 CK Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:58:28 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-8049 Well yes, I did take it a bit far. But having said that, I was surprised the moderator let my comment through and that CP was decent enough to engage (in an increasingly strange and weird debate)despite the random abuse. But medieval Catholics (and self-hating gays, apparently) who believe in the physical existence of Heaven and Hell, and that the Bible is "non-negotiable"? Well, let us not mention the mere trifle of the Protestant Reformation. Our relationship with God is "non-negotiable" indeed. Given CP's fairly fundamentalist position on Catholicism, I would love to hear his views on Protestants, Jews, Eastern Orthodox, Buddhists, and Cronulla Yobs (the un-Catholic ones)for that matter. But no. We're left with some strange obscurity surrounding civil unions in the ACT which will, apparently, bring down the walls of Rudd's Jericho. So, Christopher Pearson, an elite unto himself scribbling his nonsense from the privileged position of a regular Saturday column in the National Organ pretty much seems to take his world view from the Council of Trent (1545-63 here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent) Don't get me started on his misguided psephology. Fuck it. He deserves to be abused. Well yes, I did take it a bit far.

But having said that, I was surprised the moderator let my comment through and that CP was decent enough to engage (in an increasingly strange and weird debate)despite the random abuse.

But medieval Catholics (and self-hating gays, apparently) who believe in the physical existence of Heaven and Hell, and that the Bible is “non-negotiable”?

Well, let us not mention the mere trifle of the Protestant Reformation. Our relationship with God is “non-negotiable” indeed.

Given CP’s fairly fundamentalist position on Catholicism, I would love to hear his views on Protestants, Jews, Eastern Orthodox, Buddhists, and Cronulla Yobs (the un-Catholic ones)for that matter.

But no. We’re left with some strange obscurity surrounding civil unions in the ACT which will, apparently, bring down the walls of Rudd’s Jericho.

So, Christopher Pearson, an elite unto himself scribbling his nonsense from the privileged position of a regular Saturday column in the National Organ pretty much seems to take his world view from the Council of Trent (1545-63 here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent)

Don’t get me started on his misguided psephology.

Fuck it. He deserves to be abused.

]]> By: David Rubie http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-8036 David Rubie Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:23:00 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-8036 No-one is going to read this so it won't matter much, but Pavlovs Cat bemoans "breathtaking personal abuse" against Christopher Pearson. Screw it Ms Cat. Pearson needs abuse, he loves it. He thrives on it. I wouldn't be human if I denied a creature like that abuse. CK might have taken it a bit far, but I bet Pearson received it with a shiver of delight he won't allow himself in normal human relations. We're helping him. No-one is going to read this so it won’t matter much, but Pavlovs Cat bemoans “breathtaking personal abuse” against Christopher Pearson.

Screw it Ms Cat. Pearson needs abuse, he loves it. He thrives on it. I wouldn’t be human if I denied a creature like that abuse. CK might have taken it a bit far, but I bet Pearson received it with a shiver of delight he won’t allow himself in normal human relations. We’re helping him.

]]> By: Pavlov's Cat http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-8008 Pavlov's Cat Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:29:15 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-8008 What Paul Burns said from #200 onwards, pretty much. Thanks to Kim for starting this amazingly interesting discussion and to Paul B, Mark, Liam and Christopher in particular for conducting it in such a civil and well-informed fashion. (Snaps to CP in particular for persistent good humour in the face of some truly breathtaking personal abuse. CK, should we ever meet at a grogblog, I shall expect you to be physically godlike and flawless, unlike the rest of us.) I was born and brought up godless and have stayed that way, but really have enjoyed this discussion very much. Most of it, anyway. What Paul Burns said from #200 onwards, pretty much. Thanks to Kim for starting this amazingly interesting discussion and to Paul B, Mark, Liam and Christopher in particular for conducting it in such a civil and well-informed fashion. (Snaps to CP in particular for persistent good humour in the face of some truly breathtaking personal abuse. CK, should we ever meet at a grogblog, I shall expect you to be physically godlike and flawless, unlike the rest of us.)

I was born and brought up godless and have stayed that way, but really have enjoyed this discussion very much. Most of it, anyway.

]]> By: Paul Burns http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7997 Paul Burns Thu, 20 Dec 2007 02:29:13 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7997 Correction 210. devotion to marriage. My thanks to those of you who stuck up for me. JG - analysing history through the concept of class is not necessarily Marxist, though Marx, to an extent, pioneered it, but you can go back to implicit pre Marxist sources like Gregory King,Defoe,Arthur Young,Henry Fielding, F.M. Eden, Rev. D. Davies, and notably, Colquhoun during the 18 and early 19c all of whom in one way or another implicitly categorise people by class. And I haven't even bothered to look at American or European thinkers to add to this comment.Just to make my point - class analysis does not, repeat, not necessarily equal Marx. In fact to use Marx as a template for class analysis for any period other than the so-called First Industrial Revolution (which is nowadays a questionable historiographical label), is quite ahistorical. Correction 210. devotion to marriage.
My thanks to those of you who stuck up for me.
JG – analysing history through the concept of class is not necessarily Marxist, though Marx, to an extent, pioneered it, but you can go back to implicit pre Marxist sources like Gregory King,Defoe,Arthur Young,Henry Fielding, F.M. Eden, Rev. D. Davies, and notably, Colquhoun during the 18 and early 19c all of whom in one way or another implicitly categorise people by class. And I haven’t even bothered to look at American or European thinkers to add to this comment.Just to make my point – class analysis does not, repeat, not necessarily equal Marx. In fact to use Marx as a template for class analysis for any period other than the so-called First Industrial Revolution (which is nowadays a questionable historiographical label), is quite ahistorical.

]]> By: Paul Burns http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7995 Paul Burns Thu, 20 Dec 2007 02:14:04 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7995 JG, Where on earth do I start? I suppose with your aspersions on my supposed Marxist twaddle. Working class consciousness began in the late eighteenth century with the London Corresponding Society and agitators like Horn Took and Francis Place. Long before Marx.So that observation is some weird piece of ahistorical delusion.I'm not sure that Marx was even a twinkle in his father's eye in the period I was referring to. Aborigines - The Australian Aborigine practised a very fluid temporary polygamy on the part of the males, if I read my First Fleet sources correctly.If you don't believe me read Collins' account of Aboriginal courtship and marriage.The behaviour of Bennelong and his wives is so serial it even contradicts Collins' assertion that the women 'seldom quit' their husbands 'for another.' Slaves in the classical period - I'm assuming here that Xenophon and Plutarch knew more about the mating habits of their slaves than we do. In his Memorabilia Xenephon observes that the lustfulness of slaves be kept under control through starvation. That doesn't sound like devotion to me. Plutarch, in his Life of Cato notes that Cato was particularly concerned about slaves 'being led into mischief more often on account of love affairs than for any other reason, and he made it a rule that men could sleep with the wom\en slaves of the establishment for a fixed price, but must have nothing to do with the others.' Now that sounds more like prostitution may have been more common than marriage among slaves, and that their masters actively discouraged marriage, when it came to the reality if not the Ideal. I would have thought the discussion on this thread was dealing primarily with the European concept of marriage. I strongly object to you calling me a white supremacist, whether seriously or in jest. Apart from being in incredibly bad taste, its just plain wrong.For your information, apart from varieties of European history,I've spent probably a lot more time trhan you in the study of Aboriginal culture and history, as well as Japanese, Chinese and Korean history. Because my recollection of the latter is a bit hazy, I might get it wrong so I won't comment on Oriental marriage practices. I've recently been concentrating on Afro-American and Native American history. Not bad for some-one you accuse of being a white supremacist, is it? JG,
Where on earth do I start? I suppose with your aspersions on my supposed Marxist twaddle. Working class consciousness began in the late eighteenth century with the London Corresponding Society and agitators like Horn Took and Francis Place. Long before Marx.So that observation is some weird piece of ahistorical delusion.I’m not sure that Marx was even a twinkle in his father’s eye in the period I was referring to.
Aborigines – The Australian Aborigine practised a very fluid temporary polygamy on the part of the males, if I read my First Fleet sources correctly.If you don’t believe me
read Collins’ account of Aboriginal courtship and marriage.The behaviour of Bennelong and his wives is so serial it even contradicts Collins’ assertion that the women ’seldom quit’ their husbands ‘for another.’
Slaves in the classical period – I’m assuming here that Xenophon and Plutarch knew more about the mating habits of their slaves than we do. In his Memorabilia Xenephon observes that the lustfulness of slaves be kept under control through starvation. That doesn’t sound like devotion to me. Plutarch, in his Life of Cato notes that Cato was particularly concerned about slaves ‘being led into mischief more often on account of love affairs than for any other reason, and he made it a rule that men could sleep with the wom\en slaves of the establishment for a fixed price, but must have nothing to do with the others.’ Now that sounds more like prostitution may have been more common than marriage among slaves, and that their masters actively discouraged marriage, when it came to the reality if not the Ideal.
I would have thought the discussion on this thread was dealing primarily with the European concept of marriage. I strongly object to you calling me a white supremacist, whether seriously or in jest. Apart from being in incredibly bad taste, its just plain wrong.For your information, apart from varieties of European history,I’ve spent probably a lot more time trhan you in the study of Aboriginal culture and history, as well as Japanese, Chinese and Korean history. Because my recollection of the latter is a bit hazy, I might get it wrong so I won’t comment on Oriental marriage practices. I’ve recently been concentrating on Afro-American and Native American history. Not bad for some-one you accuse of being a white supremacist, is it?

]]> By: John Greenfield http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7975 John Greenfield Thu, 20 Dec 2007 01:19:24 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7975 adrian Actually, I am also really too old to be saying it. I get it from American younguns tv and fillums. ;) adrian

Actually, I am also really too old to be saying it. I get it from American younguns tv and fillums. ;)

]]> By: adrian http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7971 adrian Thu, 20 Dec 2007 01:09:58 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7971 My age is immaterial, man, and hey I get out anabout on the streets of Sydney every day, dude. Never hear that crazy lingo though. Must be the headphones. My age is immaterial, man, and hey I get out anabout on the streets of Sydney every day, dude. Never hear that crazy lingo though. Must be the headphones.

]]> By: John Greenfield http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7965 John Greenfield Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:40:02 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7965 adrian Dude, like how old are you? My brother, you really need to get out more, and smell those multiculti roses. adrian

Dude, like how old are you? My brother, you really need to get out more, and smell those multiculti roses.

]]> By: adrian http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7961 adrian Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:25:19 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7961 Agree, David. Paul is correct about marriage in the context of our society and culture. Dude Greenfield, it don't come from any of the streets from whence I come, hard shelled one. If you get ma drift, man. Agree, David. Paul is correct about marriage in the context of our society and culture.

Dude Greenfield, it don’t come from any of the streets from whence I come, hard shelled one. If you get ma drift, man.

]]> By: John Greenfield http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7952 John Greenfield Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:13:47 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7952 David Rubie No Paul Burns is not right about marriage. Read my reply to him. David Rubie

No Paul Burns is not right about marriage. Read my reply to him.

]]> By: David Rubie http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7951 David Rubie Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:12:37 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7951 <blockquote>‘My bad’ comes from the streets, dude.</blockquote> Like, that's totally bitchin' Greenfield. Are you a ninja turtle of the teenage variety? Paul Burns is right about marriage, although I suspect it only started becoming important when governments wanted records of marriage for property settlements. Church based registers typically don't contain much in the way of records of the great unwashed the further back you go, just the gentry.

‘My bad’ comes from the streets, dude.

Like, that’s totally bitchin’ Greenfield. Are you a ninja turtle of the teenage variety?

Paul Burns is right about marriage, although I suspect it only started becoming important when governments wanted records of marriage for property settlements. Church based registers typically don’t contain much in the way of records of the great unwashed the further back you go, just the gentry.

]]> By: John Greenfield http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7946 John Greenfield Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:07:45 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7946 adrian My dear, clearly not from the same place whence prefacing whence with the tautological 'from' comes. 'My bad' comes from the streets, dude. adrian

My dear, clearly not from the same place whence prefacing whence with the tautological ‘from’ comes.

‘My bad’ comes from the streets, dude.

]]> By: adrian http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7944 adrian Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:00:45 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7944 BTW, from where did the ugly, ungrammatical and illogical phrase 'my bad' come? It should be dispatched from whence it came, America I presume, post haste! BTW, from where did the ugly, ungrammatical and illogical phrase ‘my bad’ come?
It should be dispatched from whence it came, America I presume, post haste!

]]> By: John Greenfield http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7943 John Greenfield Wed, 19 Dec 2007 23:59:37 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7943 Paul Burns Oh PUHLEEZ. Spare us your idiotic Marxist drivel. Dude, aborigines were getting married tens of thousands of years ago, and Roman slaves two thousand years ago, and let's not even begin on the orientals! Clearly, you are a white supremacist, obsessed with bourgeois white Europeans! I intend contacting HREOC immediately. No doubt they will send you a very cross letter and demand you front up for sensitivity training. Paul Burns

Oh PUHLEEZ. Spare us your idiotic Marxist drivel. Dude, aborigines were getting married tens of thousands of years ago, and Roman slaves two thousand years ago, and let’s not even begin on the orientals! Clearly, you are a white supremacist, obsessed with bourgeois white Europeans! I intend contacting HREOC immediately. No doubt they will send you a very cross letter and demand you front up for sensitivity training.

]]> By: Paul Burns http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7941 Paul Burns Wed, 19 Dec 2007 23:52:08 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/culture-wars-now-and-forever/#comment-7941 Should I remind people that for a long time - centuries in fact - marriage was a nasty little property deal within and between the aristocracy and the gentry. The lower orders (I'm talking about the period before class consciousness created the working class) rarely married, much to the distress of late 18c early 19c. Evangelicals. Indeed, the Hardwicke Marriage Law of 1757 was passed to stop ne'er do well aristocratic wastrels and libertines from marrying juvenile heiresses without their father's permission to prevent family fortunes from falling into the hands of improvident or indebted rakes. The current alleged romantic view of marriage is an early 20c. construct and continues to fail a lot of the time because women, mostly, don't want to stick around in painful relationships just because society expects they should. Should I remind people that for a long time – centuries in fact – marriage was a nasty little property deal within and between the aristocracy and the gentry. The lower orders (I’m talking about the period before class consciousness created the working class) rarely married, much to the distress of late 18c early 19c. Evangelicals. Indeed, the Hardwicke Marriage Law of 1757 was passed to stop ne’er do well aristocratic wastrels and libertines from marrying juvenile heiresses without their father’s permission to prevent family fortunes from falling into the hands of improvident or indebted rakes.
The current alleged romantic view of marriage is an early 20c. construct and continues to fail a lot of the time because women, mostly, don’t want to stick around in painful relationships just because society expects they should.

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