Me too, says Mal

So, as a rather bemused Tony Abbott was confronted with on Lateline tonight, Macolm Turnbull has now vowed to support signing Kyoto and an apology to the Stolen generation, to support gay rights, to tear up WorkChoices and Lord knows what else. Meanwhile the Libs in WA and Qld compete with each other for the prize of most farcical Liberal leadership stoush.

Here’s the dilemma the Libs face. For the most part, their state counterparts have retreated from any ideological opposition to the dominant Labor governments, because the “privatise everything and sack everyone and close the schools” etc legacy most exemplified by Kennett was never gonna fly again. But the public don’t believe them, particularly when the influence of the Liberal right in destructive factional and leadership squabbling is still evident. If you minimise the differences with your opponent, you have to hope like hell for two things – that people believe you’re sincere, and that you can take them on competence. You haven’t got much left because you’re competing for the same centre ground, while all the while the true believers in the last Dear Leader and the “golden age” plot away in the background.

Still, who’d have believed a week ago that we’d have seen not just Howard himself junked by his former sycophants, but also all the policy positions he held dear? Interesting times, as Abbott says…

Posted in politics
65 comments on “Me too, says Mal
  1. anthony says:

    “Still, who’d have believed a week ago that we’d have seen not just Howard himself junked by his former sycophants,”

    All’s noisy on the Western Front

    – how could the nation be so ungrateful
    – it’s the left wing media
    – you’ll be sorry
    – but no we’re not going to be sorry about Aborigines because it’s not personally our fault

    Great reading the letters page on the West Australian at the moment, may a thousand coldsores bloom.

  2. H. says:

    I wouldn’t write the Liberals off too quickly. A Turnbull leadership might turn things around more swiftly than one might imagine. He’s saying the right things about Workchoices, Kyoto, “Sorry”, etc. He will appeal to exactly the type of swing voter turned off by the toxicity of the Howard years. My prediction is that next year will be the highwater mark for Labor, followed by gentle decline. Rudd will win the next election, but the Liberals will run it close. I doubt Rudd will be a three-termer.

  3. Guy says:

    It’s been fascinating. For the last eleven years Howard and his agenda have seemed indestructible. Then last Saturday rolls by, and everything he stood so rigidly for looks like it is in danger of getting washed down the drain. My first reaction, like most people reading here, I would imagine is: lovely. 😉

    I think a Turnbull Federal Opposition has by far the best chance of keeping Labor on its toes and would be good for Australia. I think if he plays his cards right, he would be in with a decent chance of leading the Coalition to victory in 2010.

    Whether the more conservative, reactionary elements of the Liberal and National parties are going to be able to stomach Turnbull for any extended duration is another question entirely.

  4. gandhi says:

    This little insight from Abbott was priceless:

    He said Mr Howard “has the character to cope” with the loss of both his job and seat.

    “He is philosophical.

    “He knows that there were many decisions that he made … that will inevitably be called into question (but) … he has come to the conclusion that it was not him.”

    What are the stages? Denial, um… denial, and … um,… more denial!

  5. Helen says:

    Priceless sentence from Catherine Deveny yesterday:

    I can’t really hate Malcolm Turnbull yet, I just like laughing at him in the same way I would laugh at a dog with a bucket on its head.

  6. Paul Burns says:

    I don’t know if I agree entirely with Biddulph’s political analysis but the general ptcture he paints rings too true.
    I could start raving on about AWAs again and the ALPs cowardly failure to make their removal retrospective, but I’m beginning to sound like a broken record on this.
    If the Liberal Party is dead. and it may well be as the comparison about what happened to the UAP after the death of Lyons and the current Liberal party, at this stage appear mind-bogglingly similat, the its entirely possible Turnbull could be the new Menzies.
    If the predictions of economic doom and gloom are accurate (I don’t doubt the environmental predictions) there is every possibility that Rudd could be the new Scullin.If there’s a Lang its probably that unprincipled Liberal masquerading as an ALP man in Tasmania.
    I’m not sure what Biddulph’s scenario means for the far left and far right. Does it mean Socialist Alliance will replace the Greens in the Senate, and some so far unknown right wing party will replace FF. Could it be One Narion? The latter is an unbearable prospect. It would mean our fight against Howard’s neo-liberal fascism would have to start all over again.

  7. I have to say that I completely reject several of Biddulph’s key premises.

    The USA is not going away any time soon. Nor are we likely to see another 1930’s-style Great Depression.

    Furthermore, let’s remember that the Liberal Party has rich supporters, has 47% of the population who prefer them to the current government, and a reasonably coherent philosophical core that, once given a cleanout of accumulated rubbish from the Howard era, will retain appeal to a fairly broad cross-section of the population.

    Furthermore, the Greens still have a fair way to go on moderating their policy platforms before they see really wide appeal.

  8. Katz says:

    Just a thought:

    It is assumed that Turnbull will win the Liberal leeadership quite handily. But there is another possible outcome.

    Tony Abbott pulled out of the leadership race but promised to return as “the honorary life president of the John Howard fan club”.

    Thus Abbott is saying that the struggle between conservative and liberal in the Liberal Party is by no means over.

    One interesting scenario is that the Right could thorw its weight behind Brendan Nelson in today’s leadership vote.

    Nelson, a moderate, is also accident-prone and less likely to establish a long-standing ascendancy.

    The Right could therefore support Nelson’s election in the expectation of his failure, allowing the Right to gather their forces for a new tilt at leadership at some future time.

  9. via collins says:

    Seeing Abbot happily state that Howard has examined the entrails, and assured himself that the defeat was unrelated to himself has given me the nectar of victory that I missed on Saturday night.

    Perhaps it was Rudd’s speech, but there was something a tad deflating about the closure of the election. But Howard’s distancing himself from what he is unequivocally responsible for is priceless. His last blame-shift is his finest of all. Tony Jones struggled to keep a straight face. He wasn’t the only one.

    I stand toe-to-toe with Costello’s father in paying tribute to J-Ho’s astonishing egomania.

  10. gummotrotsky says:

    That’s pretty much the way I’d read it Katz – Tone will vote for whoever he thinks he can knock off later.

  11. gandhi says:

    One other good thing about the Coalition train-wreck is that it ensures we won’t be seeing too much more of Little Johnny on the televisions no more.

    Howerd is now promising to maintain a low profile and not disrupt the new government with constant criticism (as he blames Fraser, Keating, Hawke, and even Gough, for doing).

    Sad fact is, he won’t be able to walk down the main street of Wollestonecraft without eliciting passing smirks from all and sundry!

    Imagine if he had quit on top a year ago – we would never have been rid of him! I predict Howard will be looking very old very quickly, if and when we do see him on TV again.

  12. jo says:

    money talks and bullshit as they say – if the liberals aren’t going to follow the money trail up-town with malcolm, then they really are doomed.

    the smarter bits of the oz business community in many cases had moved from kyoto and were never wedded to workchoices – that doesn’t mean they werent voting outside of their self interest on either a personal and professional level – but they aren’t the troglodytes that are pulling so many strings within the nsw liberal party.

    turnbull & robb = money. though they might put up bishop purely to counter gillard.

  13. Michael says:

    I think Horatio will win todays vote, with the support of the Howard detritus.

    And wasn’t it a great Lateline interview last night with the Abbott? My favoutite part was this,
    “Tony [Jones] you’re oppressing me”.

    Come on Tony, it was hardly the Spanish Inquisition.

  14. gandhi says:

    But jo,

    bull$hit + money = turnbull.

  15. wasjotoo says:

    “Furthermore, the Greens still have a fair way to go on moderating their policy platforms before they see really wide appeal.”

    On the contrary Robert, it will be the major parties that will sensibly continue to try and catch up with Green policy.

  16. Waxeater says:

    Homeland Security gone.
    In the SMH yesterday:
    Another Labor source said: “I suppose you could put it in the non-core promise category.” That’s gold.

  17. gandhi says:

    Robert Merkel,

    The USA is not going away any time soon.

    There are obvious problems involved with cutting off credit to a drug-dependent psychopath who is armed to the teeth. And the sheer size of the US economy today makes trillion-dollar-losses in Iraq less spectacular than they might at first sound. But articles like this and this certainly provide some sobering food for thought, particularly given the mainstream media’s reluctance to countenance such “irresponsible journalism”.

  18. Andrew E says:

    Turnbull is the nearest thing the Libs have had to Bob Hawke. He is an itch they will have to scratch sooner or later.

    Nelson’s inhumanly even tone creeps me out. He wouldn’t make it to the first election. No swinging voter would swing back to the Liberals on the basis of Nelson.

    All that crap from Abbott about not ruling out a challenge into the future – pretty hollow threat from somebody who doesn’t have the numbers. This threat would be real if coming from Turnbull, which will see a few waverers come down for him. Ian Macphee was president of the Malcolm Fraser Fan Club, and fat lot of good it did him.

    For deputy:

    Robb – has the experience of all aspects of politics outside parliament and can crack heads.

    Bishop – comes from one of the few parts of Australia where people might be prepared to donate to the Liberal Party. Might go into WA state politics – no, make that “Should”, as Gillard would have her for breakfast.

    it will be the major parties that will sensibly continue to try and catch up with Green policy.

    Notice how the Greens never really get credit for major parties adopting environmental initiatives? Where are the Green initiatives from 1997 or 1987 that the majors are only catching up to now?

  19. gandhi says:

    More comedy gold:

    Mr Abbott said Mr Howard, while obviously disappointed, had not apologised for having led the Coalition to Saturday’s defeat.

    “He has nothing to apologise for … He certainly didn’t say that he is sorry for his Government or he is sorry for his decisions. He said none of that.”

    Another Liberal at the lunch said Mr Howard had appeared jovial and upbeat.

    I guess Rupert has already offered him a seat next to Jose Maria Aznar on the War Crimes R US Corp board. Let’s see if Lou Gerstner wants to up the ante.

  20. gandhi says:

    So much for the union scare campaign: Garrett is in, Comet and Shorten are out.

  21. Jane says:

    Oh I don’t know, Michael. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, but on the other hand this is the mad monk, so anything’s possible.
    As for the leadership, it’s hard to say whether Turnbull is sincere or not, but I have the feeling he’s nowhere near as right wing as the Mad Monk or Nelson, who is probably more of a complete wanker. However, the major problem for them now is that there is no real talent in the Parliamentary party, thanks to the Rodent, who comprehensively shafted anyone who might have been capable of succeeding him, just like old Pig Iron. And that will be the principle legacy of this mean-spirited, arrogant and vengeful waste of space. He’s made sure that the Liberal Party will be well and truly punished for giving him the flick.
    My prediction is that there will be great deal more blood-letting which will make it very hard for them to attract any decent talent, ergo a very bad thing for the country. We saw that in the eighties when the blood bank had a permanent station next to the opposition offices.
    I don’t think that Rudd is anywhere near the ego-maniac that His Royal Rodentness is, but having a weak opposition is very tempting. On the other hand, I reckon there are enough strong personalities now in government, who won’t hesitate to let Kev07 know if he’s getting too far up himself.
    To that end every Labor MP should have a photo of Ratty at his worst in his/her office to prevent the onset of a severe attack of Rat Syndrome.

  22. wasjotoo says:

    “bull$hit + money = turnbull.”

    Just wondering whether an investigation into tactics used by a sitting member will be investigated.

    George Newhouse would have very good reason to be miffed if claims about his ineligibility were fabricated by someone rich enough to widely proclaim that in media.

  23. Enemy Combatant says:

    The algebra of antipodean tory survival:

    Mercantile Access + Wet Appeal + Siver Tongue = Petit Mal + Julie Mesmer

    The Mad Monk will be a longtime spoiler, but will become increasingly irrelevant as the times pass him by, imho. Sure, he’ll vote for Stud Nelson VC, but as Team Tin-Tin ramp up and shine, the follies of Rodente Minor will haunt The Mad Monk. Symbiosis takes two. Monky will continue to kick lepers(RIP dear Bernie) and bypass fallen Samaritans on his IED-riddled and never ending Road to Damascus.
    Uglies Australia-wide will be left to gnash teeth, weep and tighten their celices.

  24. jinmaro says:

    The symbolism of much of a Rudd government’s proposed changes, from the partial withdrawal from Iraq, but maintaining troops in Afghanistan and possibly supporting an attack on Iran, signing the Kyoto Protocol but doing not a lot else that’s needed on climate change, continuing to support the coal industry and unpopular, environmentally destructive corporate initiatives like the pulp mill in Tassie, saying sorry to indigenous Australia but showing no evidence of a plan or even an understanding of how to tackle the bigger issues of indigenous economic and social disadvantage and cultural exploitation and marginalisation, the limited Work Choices changes, the promised “fiscal rectitude” in public sector spending, the obvious limitations of the “education revolution” – all this means that a lot of people will be looking to the Greens side of the political spectrum in the coming period.

    Expectations have been raised. But there is another force where they will increasingly come to reside: with the million plus people who voted for the Greens.

  25. Mindy says:

    Brendan Nelson is the new Opposition Leader. Julie Bishop is Deputy.

  26. grace pettigrew says:

    The Liberal Party has been totalled by the election defeat, and must rebuild so that we have a credible opposition in parliament. To reconstitute itself, the Liberal Party first needs MONEY (bugger membership, who needs members, we can hire backpackers to hand out HTVs).

    Andrew Robb is the donation supremo in the party, so he should get the gig as deputy and silent partner. Turnbull also knows how to play the big end of town, so he should get the top job.

    And from a left perspective, I hope Turnbull does. He could end up wedging Rudd on the Republic, global warming, gay rights, and the pulp mill. What fun that would be for those of us who want progress on these fronts, no matter who pulls the levers. And in the meantime, the Liberal Party might find itself gaining popularity with voters.

    But there is a death wish still abroad in the Liberal Party. Wilson Tuckey stalks the land clutching his iron bar. And then there’s the catholic mafia, Abbott and Pyne, don’t women just love ’em.

    We will know later today whether the Liberals are really kaput, or can remake themselves as a credible opposition.

  27. wasjotoo says:

    Mad Monk with protege Alex Hawke will be a sight to see. Running up parliamentary corridors in cloaks, giving secret signs, then off for rosary and flagellation.

    Hell, at least it will provide a decent sideshow.

  28. Mindy says:

    I must have pressed enter a fraction of a second before you Grace, sorry!

  29. Darlene says:

    Brendan Nelson is the new Liberal leader.

    Could be interesting.

  30. Antonio says:


    Alex Hawke is an evangelical protestant, not a catholic.

    I agree with Katz’s assessment of the reason behind the NSW & SA Right backing Brendan Nelson.

    A Nelson/Bishop team will be moderate but relatively weak, which plays right into Abbott’s hands. Turnbull needs to use this time to really work over the backbench and the moderates in particular who were not overly enthused by his candidature.

  31. Anita says:

    As Kim points out so clearly, Kennettism won’t ever wash again and the Libs have to disown it. Instead, they have disdained State politics. People get pissed off at state governments but won’t vote for a woeful opposition.

    How laughable was it that Labor State domination was offered as a ‘reason’ for re-electing the coalition federally, when Labor domination largely stems from Liberal disinclination to worry about all that boring service delivery. The Libs’ contempt for State politics was blatantly obvious in Howards’ last days, as promises of moolah for anything and everything were thrown about at micro-local level.
    The Libs have to dump on ‘the Howard legacy’, which is very sweet. My feeling – or is it prayer? – is that Abbott will join the likes of Tuckey and Heffernan and new freak-on-the-block Alex Hawke in Liberal Sideshow Alley.

  32. Bruce says:

    Brendan Nelson will be an easy target because he presided over the fiasco of the purchase of the Super Hornet and tying Australia into the Joint Strike Fighter deal (JSF). The Super Hornet was a unilateral decision by him against RAAF advice and got us 24 $6billion flying-white elephants. It is the worst defence purchasing decision this country has ever made.

    There is a good chance we will have to extracate ourselves from the JSF program, to which we committed too soon. It is overweight, undercapability and increasingly expensive.

    I think the decion to go with Nelson is better for Turnbull in the medium term. Labor is likely to win the next election, but Turnbull will avoid the ignomony of being the losing leader (like Beazley). He can then lead in for the election after that with a good chance of winning.

  33. Sir Henry Casingbroke says:

    Gormless Brendon is nothing but a cipher and berley for the punters; behind him still stand the Forces of Darkness and he will become nothing more than a glovepuppet of the Mad Monk and his cabal.

    Laser Eyes Julie is a Mining and Big Business fifth columnist and a secular ally of the Lunar Right. If anyone thinks that anything has changed with the Libs they are off their rocker. The Libs have just lurched to the Far Right. In future expect either Julie or the Monk to assume Fuhrership. These people do not give up. Period. Hopefully they will cause a split in the Liberal Party, but I am not so sure. It’s up to Mal.

    I can only suggest that if the Libs pull a stunt in the Senate, Double Dissolution them and wipe them off the face of the electoral map. Period.

  34. Sam Clifford says:

    Nelson’s been elected leader. He’ll lay the groundwork for the party to rebuild in a “liberal fundamentals” manner such that Turnbull can steer the party to victory at the election after next.

  35. FDB says:

    I wonder how hard Petit Mal had to campaign to get Nelson up? 😉

  36. Anita says:

    “Labor is likely to win the next election, but Turnbull will avoid the ignomony of being the losing leader (like Beazley). He can then lead in for the election after that with a good chance of winning.”

    …and by being game enough to be in the race and lose, he moves on from that born-to-rule patrician image from the republican convention days, and also avoids the ignominy of looking gutless like Costello

  37. Katz says:

    Petit Mal ran dead FDB?

    I like the way you think!

  38. FDB says:

    I think the way I like!

  39. Helen says:

    The Devine one swoons as the giant male silverbacks thump their chests and make threatening gestures at each other.

    Yeah, it’s the result of a complete meltdown, but.. Ooh…!

  40. jinmara says:


  41. FDB says:

    It would stand to make him appear keen to rebuild ASAP, when in fact he knows it’s going to take a lot of hard slog to clear out the deadwood. Frees him up to work behind the scenes, etc etc

    I hope I’m right. Although the alternative scenario of a big bust-up would be cool too. An actual liberal party dusting itself off and slipping into a crisp linen suit, while a rump of hard-right turds perpetually circle the s-bend – reduced to ever more shrill culture war pronouncements to keep themselves in the public eye.

  42. Anita says:

    Kev’s choices,23599,22840697-2,00.html

    Julia Gillard gets education too

  43. David Rubie says:

    The Liberals wouldn’t be stupid enough to run one of Labor’s special “two term” election strategies would they? Surely that imbecile Nelson is just there warming the seat until they lurch towards Turnbull in about eighteen months. Who could possibly take Brendan Nelson seriously?

  44. FDB says:

    Go Penny! Go Julia!

    I’m glad they “me-tooed” the Climate Change and Water gig. Not too sure about IR and Education. Heck of a workload.

    An asian and a ranga, a lesbian and a not-gonna-have-kidser. Well I never.

  45. Mark Hill says:

    Fleeced Says:
    November 29, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    LOL… a former ALP member and former president of the AMA. Hehe – the Liberal party is run by union bosses!

    What a bunch of dweebs.

  46. grace pettigrew says:

    No worries Mindy, I should have waited for the 1 pm news and then I need not have posted at all!

    So its the 6 Billion Dollar Man, what a laugh. Nelson is nothing short of ridiculous. Presumably he is the right faction’s sock-puppet, but being so vain he probably does not know it yet.

    Bishop got the job because she can bring the WA moneybags along with her. I can’t dare to believe that the Liberal Party actually thinks she is a match for Julia Gillard in parliamentary debate. Although that mad stare might well give Gillard pause, it would me.

    Well I guess Turnbull will just have to bide his time – and he’s not very good at that, so it will be interesting to see how long Nelly lasts.

    In the meantime, we will have to endure at least six months of Senate blockage on the things that really matter to the electorate like repealing Workchoices and doing something meaningful about climate change.

  47. Sir Henry Casingbroke says:

    Yep. Miranda Devine, digs a hole under Mal this morning, the cabal speaks. It all falls into place. The ideological battle will first take place inside the Liberal party. And I, for one, am looking forward to the blood on the floor. The more blood, the better.

  48. grace pettigrew says:

    It appears that Greg Combet has been given Defence Procurement.

    Rudd’s crystal ball must be really shining bright.

    Combet will tear Nelly to shreds.

  49. gandhi says:

    An asian and a ranga, a lesbian and a not-gonna-have-kidser.

    I don’t know what a “ranga” is (something to do with the old Indian love manual?), but it sure is funny to think of all the anti-asian, anti-gay farmers who are now pinning their hopes on Penny! Get down on your knees and pray for golden showers, gentlemen! Nah, what? Piss on that? Ha ha ha!

    Libs split down the middle. Brilliant. I’m splitting my sides.

    Will Brendan The Unfettered now explain whether or not the Iraq War was really about oil or not??? Ha!

    Do we need to even mention these fools again for another three years?

  50. amused says:

    Abbott-He’ll be back!

  51. Enemy Combatant says:

    And So It Came To Pass; Rodente Minor “bequeathed” his beloved nation an Imbecile and a Mesmerist.
    Maye this is the sort of thing Paulie had in mind when he talked about throwing the switch to vaudeville. With a brooding Mad Monk and a miffed Petit Mal skulking close, this should be fun. Mustn’t forget to bring lots of peanuts. At 45-42, Petit Mal was giving it his best shot, don’t think he “ran dead”.
    “And I, for one, am looking forward to the blood on the floor. The more blood, the better.”
    Just so, Sir H, Ushers will need to keep the Corridors of Opposition ankle-deep in sawdust at all times.

  52. urrbraelibrary says:

    A ‘ranga’ is a redhead.

  53. Peterc says:

    I don’t think Nelson is leadership material. Now we will find out if has.

  54. Antonio says:

    Grace Pettigrew,

    Both Nelson and Bishop come from the organisational and ideological Left of the Liberal party. Nelson from a subfaction of the Group in NSW and Bishop from the Campbell-Ellison cabal of libs, mods, tories and anyone else who hates Creighton-Browne. Seems obvious to me that the NSW & SA Right are supporting Nelson in the hope that he “does a Crean” and keels over mid-term. They know that Nelson will be moderate. When his polling drops, they will blame his “soft” polcies and seek a strong Right consensus candidate – Abbott. Turnbull is ideologically liberal on some issues (queer, environment, indigenous) but conservative on others (anti-multiculturalism). He comes from completely outside the factional system and is a one-man machine. Hopefully, he can learn some humility on the back-benches and work his colleagues over in time for the post-Nelson era. His strengths are his willingness to totally overhaul the party machine. His weakness is his ego.

  55. wasjotoo says:

    “Alex Hawke is an evangelical protestant, not a catholic.”

    Antonio, if you carefully read my wild cloak and crucifix fantasy, in which I forgot to mention Christopher Pine and other holy rollers, I never said Alex Hawke was a catholic.

    Not sure where you got that idea.

  56. wbb says:

    His weakness is his ego.

    Unlike who?

  57. grace pettigrew says:

    Thanks for that background Antonio, and it appears that Minchin (hard right SA) swung the six votes that Nelson needed because he could not abide Turnbull’s moves towards an indigenous apology.

    And there Nelson was last night on telly, squirming around saying that an apology was not necessary.

    To most other questions, Nelson said he would have to consult his significant others before making a conclusive statement about his position…

    Nelson will find it impossible to function like this in the longer run. It will not be long before O’Brien and Jones expose him as having no opinions of his own, left or right, and only able to open his mouth on the basis of backroom instructions.

    On Turnbull, I doubt that he will “learn some humility” as shadow Treasurer…and in a sense, I hope he does not. If I like anything about Turnbull its his amazing effrontery.

    Let it roll.

  58. Antonio says:

    Wasjotoo, you said that Alex Hawke and Tony Abbott would be off for rosary and flagellation. Tony Abbott maybe, but being a good protestant Alex Hawke has nothing to do with rosary and flagellation. By all means satire the religious right, but maybe get the background right first before forming the stereotype.

    Grace Pettigrew, I totally agree with you. Nelson is going to be crunched on so many issues by the Right on one hand and his moderate conscience on the other that he will compromise himself right out. Shades of Phillip Ruddock….

  59. wasjotoo says:

    Antonio, I have yet to see the right get background correct when stereotyping Leftys. Maybe you just learn to have a laff without thinking about stuff too much. Cheers…

  60. FDB says:

    Don’t sink to their level wasjotoo.

    Keep to the filthy limerick high ground!

  61. wasjotoo says:

    Nobody could go that low FDB.

    They even had a go at creating the myth of the left as not having a sense of humour. What a joke.

  62. Paul Burns says:

    Nelson as leaser starts off in true Howard style with a lie. We’re not responsible for the stolen generation. Its those old buggers from the past. So we won’t apoligise.
    Sorry, Brendon. Any E$uropean Australian who had the vote between 1910 and 1970 is responsible.That is any one 56 or older. 11 years ago it was anybody who was 46 or older.
    JWH is alive and well in the Liberal Party.

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